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Description
The question
A period-marked word opening a name can be a title (Excm., Engr.), a given name written short (Mohd., Fco.), the start of a surname (Sta. Maria, Mt. Pleasant), or a typing slip (BEUMLER. WEAVER, CAROL). Nothing in the word's shape tells these apart. The proposal is to let the vocabulary decide: list the titles, the abbreviated given names and the abbreviated surname heads we can find, and let each slip read wherever the rules put it.
That is how rules/H6 (a title before a family comma) already works, so H6 keeps its vocabulary-only reading. What changes is its reason and its vocabulary:
Excm. Sr. Lloret Palol, Josep Antoni Carles Joan
today: family 'Excm. Lloret Palol', suffix 'Sr.'
excm listed: title 'Excm. Sr.', family 'Lloret Palol'
Why H6's reason needs rewriting
decisions/H6 declined H2's shape before a family comma twice. Both reasons have since gone stale:
- 2026-10-17,
Dr. Smith, Johnreads familyDr. Smith: a title before a family comma isn't peeled #701: "every CLDR case is a listed title". Two CLDR samples have since joined the corpus with Read the field and the comma from what stands beside it: H1 behind a comma (#720), C12 (#656) #735 and break that:Excm. Sr. Lloret Palol II, …andExcma. Dra. Van Dalen Hoogeveen II, …. - 2026-10-18,
Xyz. née Jones, Johnkeepsnée Jonesin the family whereSmith née Jones, Johnreads maidenJones: should a word before a family comma count as a surname for the maiden marker? #710: the cost wasSta. Mariaand its siblings (1,057 US Census 2010 bearers), and "reopening it would need a stop forsta/sto". ShouldJuan Sta. Mariaread familySta. Maria? Today it reads middleSta., familyMaria#725 made both saint particles, so a shape peel that kept H6's particle stop would now leave them whole.
A scan for what a shape peel would reach (below) finds the reason that still holds. The slot before a family comma also holds given names written short (Md. Abu Shahin, FCPS, MD, Mohamad. S. AlSalhi, …), stray periods (CARL. G, EMILSON, Frances. M Cowan, …) and abbreviated surname heads that are not particles (MT. PLEASANT, JANE). So the proposed H6 Because reads: "a period-marked word there may be a title, a credential, a given name written short, a surname's head or a slip, and its shape tells none of these apart, so only the vocabulary claims it."
What the corpora hold (measured 2026-11-06)
Recipe: every distinct name in the 15 local corpora and the committed tools/differential/corpus*.jsonl whose first word matches [^\W\d_]{2,}\. followed by a space, keeping the words that Lexicon.default() does not list as a title, gated title, particle, given abbreviation or suffix. That gives 560 distinct words in 18,617 names, against dd2650ef.
Listed in a pack, off by default. A pack choice already reads these. They show up here only because the default lexicon lacks them:
- cs/sk degrees:
MUDr.2,323,JUDr.846,PhDr.732,RNDr.570,MVDr.393,MgA.323,PaedDr.255,PharmDr.146,MDDr.84 - es:
Lic.1,428,Mtro.333,Mtra.192,Lcda.89,Arq.72,Lcdo.32 - vi:
ThS.240
Excluded on purpose: Bc. 8,724 (the US nursing BC), Mst. 104 and Sig. 4. Their recorded reasons should be re-read against these counts.
Unlisted titles (candidates):
- Engineering:
Engr.70,Eng.29,Ir.15,Er.7 - Academic:
Doc.308,RSDr.90,Drs.15,ThLic./ThMgr./ThDr.,Akad. mal./Ak. mal.,Prim.,Mgtr.,Profr.,Mtr. - Spanish:
Licda.14,Dip.15 (diputado),Sen.28,Gral.12,Cor.,Tte.,Biól.,Act.,LAE.,LCP.,MAP.,MVZ. - Czech ranks:
mjr.,plk.,npor. - Modifiers:
Assist. Prof.19,Ass. Prof.7,Em. prof. - Others:
Ven.19,Ku.11 (Nepali Kumari),Adv.,RR.(Javanese Raden Rara),med.,Excm./Excma.(CLDR) Dipl.19 as a word of its own (Dipl. Ing.,Dipl. Arch.). The hyphenatedDipl.-Ing.is already a deacademicword.
Given names written short (candidates for a given reading with same_as, the shape Chas. takes since #789):
- Muhammad:
Mo.44,Mohd.37,Moh.28,Muh.26,Moch.11,Mhd.5,Ach.5 - Others:
Fco.7 (Francisco),Sk.18 /Sh.5 (Sheikh),Kh.,Th.,Ph.,Jan.
The Muhammad forms have no credential reading, so they don't run into what kept md from taking a given reading (decisions/C3, the md decline). Each of them reads as a title by H2's shape today, wherever it opens a name: Mohd. Ali Hassan → title 'Mohd.'. Md. itself stays an accepted cost (decisions/indic-honorifics, #853). Whether these new readings change that is a question for this issue.
Surname heads (candidates for particles): Mt. (MT. PLEASANT). The search for more is part of the work.
Slips (Mohammed., Abdullah., BEUMLER.): not listed. They read wherever the rules put them.
Proposed work
- Amend rules/H6's Because and add a decisions/H6 entry recording that Should
Juan Sta. Mariaread familySta. Maria? Today it reads middleSta., familyMaria#725 removedXyz. née Jones, Johnkeepsnée Jonesin the family whereSmith née Jones, Johnreads maidenJones: should a word before a family comma count as a surname for the maiden marker? #710's cost, and the stated reason that replaces it. Date or drop the CLDR line. - Batches by class, each with bearer counts (
tools/name_usage.py --boxes,tools/vocab/word_report.py --rank), as Phase 2: derive ambiguity from clashing readings and extend the gate to every reading kind #752's phase 2 batches ran:- the Muhammad abbreviations and other given names written short
- engineering and academic titles
- Spanish titles not yet in es.toml
- the remaining titles and the modifiers
Mt.and any other surname heads found
- Decide, for each pack-only word, whether it should be on by default. For example,
MUDr.is not borne as a name anywhere, so it may not need a Czech choice.
Open questions
- Which pack-only degrees should be on by default?
- Do
Bc.,Mst.andSig.keep their exclusions in light of these counts? - C1: many names this reaches are given-first names whose comma sets off a credential C1 doesn't know (
Ing. Jitka Červenková, MScM,Ns. Andan Firmansyah., S.Kep., M.Kep.). Is listing those post-nominals part of this, or its own issue?
Activity
derek73 commentedon Nov 6, 2026
The
Dipl.degrees, looked at more closely: the spacedDipl. Ing.that the list above names is the smaller part of the problem.Where
Dipllands today (measured 2026-11-06)Recipe: every distinct name in the 15 local corpora and the committed
tools/differential/corpus*.jsonlwhose text holdsdipl, case-insensitive, sorted by which field ofparse()holds it. That is 234 names, againstdd2650ef: title 91, given 61, family 42 (nearly all the surnameDIPLACIDI), suffix 31, middle 9.The given bucket is where the misreads are. Leaving out the given names
Diplal/Diplinaand theDiploma …course titles, about 35 names read a Diplom degree as the given name. Behind a comma, the name is then reversed around it:Also written so:
-Pol.,-Kffr.,-Inf.,-Ing.FH,-Biophys,-Optom.Two causes:
dipl.-ingis listed (de.toml,academic). The others aren't, and a hyphenated word can't take rules/H2's shape, which needs letters and a single trailing period. SoDipl.-Psych.is a title nowhere, while the spacedDipl. Psych.reads as one wherever H2 or the comma path's title read reaches it (Bettina Viereck, Dipl. Psych.→ title 'Dipl. Psych.').dipl.-ingdoesn't matchDipl.Ing.(glued),Dipl IngorDipl. Ing., and before a family comma, where H6 accepts listed words only, the spaced form stays in the family (Dipl. Ing. Kurschatke, Walter→ family 'Dipl. Ing. Kurschatke'). Trailing, even the listed spelling is missed:Walter Kurschatke Dipl.-Ing.→ family 'Dipl.-Ing.', whereWalter Kurschatke Prof.reads title 'Prof.' (rules/H5).Proposal
List the Diplom degrees, German and Czech, each with its
expands:dipl.-ing,-psych,-kfm/-kffr,-phys,-pol,-soz,-inf,-biol/-biophys,-optom, and Czechdipl. um.(30 names, read as a title today where a comma sets it off).Match a listed word written in parts across its separators. A listed spelling with an internal separator (
dipl.-ing) matches its parts joined by a period, a hyphen, a space or nothing:Dipl.-Ing.,Dipl.Ing.,Dipl. Ing.,Dipl Ing. A word listed as one part never qualifies.This is not rules/S12 (a credential split across a space) moved to the front of the name. S12 joins the letters of any two short words and looks the result up, a guess that its count then settles. Before a name, that guess would read
Mr S Smithas the titleMrs, since a title followed by an initial is the commonest shape there is. Matching a listed word's own parts needs no count and makes no report.The trailing hyphenated title: find why H5 misses
Dipl.-Ing.at the end of a name, and whether any listed hyphenated title is read there today.Periodless spellings are rare: 3 names (
Aleksandra Vuckovic, Dipl Ing MSc PhD,Bettina Viereck, Dipl-Psych,Helmut Teschler, Prof. Dr. dipl Ing), all ctgov, all after the name, all reversed. The separator match covers them once the degrees are listed. Whether that is reached depends on what rules/C1 (the family-comma decision) asks of a part after a comma.derek73 commentedon Nov 6, 2026
Correction to the issue body: the two CLDR names (
Excm. Sr. Lloret Palol II, …andExcma. Dra. Van Dalen Hoogeveen II, …) did not enter the CLDR corpus with #735. They have been incorpus_cldr.jsonlsince #654 (2026-10-12), five days before #701, and they read the same way at #701's own commit. So the 2026-10-17 entry's "every CLDR case is a listed title" did not hold even when it was written. decisions/H6's 2026-11-06 entry in #1117 records it that way.Read Muhammad, Achmad and Francisco written short as given names (#1115…
List the titles with no name bearers that open names (#1115) (#1119)
Read the pack titles no name bears by default (#1115) (#1121)
Scope rules/S3's title-chunk bullet to what the code reads (#1115)
List dipl, the diploma degree, as a title (#1115) (#1123)
derek73 commentedon Nov 7, 2026
Closing: the work this issue proposed has shipped. rules/H6's Because and its decisions entry (#1117); the Muhammad and other given-name abbreviations (#1117); the title batches (#1119); the pack titles on by default (#1121); the Diplom degrees (#1123); and the trailing joined and hyphenated titles (#1116, #1125). What's left moves to new issues:
Mt.: Which unlisted words that open a name with a period should the vocabulary list:Sen.,Ku.,Sk.? #1129Mst's exclusion (Bc.andSig.hold, measured there): ShouldMrs Mst Nasima AktherreadMstas a title, now that its exclusion's reason doesn't hold? #1130The C1 open question, post-nominals after a comma that C1 doesn't know (
MScM,S.Kep.), is #969's and #998's.List Sheikh written short and the titles no name bears from #1115's l…